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Tortosins: Ni catalans ni valencians

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Resultados 1 al 14 de 14

Tema: Tortosins: Ni catalans ni valencians

  1. #1
    Tinent de lo Regne
    Fecha de ingreso
    09 oct, 08
    Mensajes
    4,716

    Tortosins: Ni catalans ni valencians

    TORTOSINS: NI CATALANS NI VALENCIANS

    Molt a sovint, els bacores de sempre, escampen falsetats que pretenen qüestionar el sentiment valencià dels nostres germans del nort de l´actual provincia de Castello, en l´unica finalitat de desestructurar l´unitat del poble valencià. Pretenen l´existencia de problemes d´identitat a on no n’hi han, obviant-los a on realment els tenen.

    Son els catalans i no els valencians els qui tenen un problema d´identitat nacional dins de les seues fronteres. Els tortosins, ni es senten ni s´han sentit historicament catalans.

    El problema identitari que tenen els catalans en els tortosins, es troba ben viu. Fa poc, un “Comunicat dels barraquistes” manifestava que: “Diuen que no parlem bé. Diuen que els balls nostres no són catalans. Només ens voleu per al dia d’anar a votar, i si no tinguéssim el riu Ebre, no ens donaríeu ni aigua per a beure”. Francesc Pujol, en el llibre “Obra del Cançoner Popular de Catalunya: materials”, nos fa saber que “el tio Jaume de la gaita”, un tortosi, d´Alcover, “Ens parla de Catalunya com d´una terra estranya”, explicant que els tortosins “s´han cregut aïllats” afirmant “que sols eren tortosins”, pero que aixo, “potser no s´atreveix a dir-nos-ho” ¿I no pensen per qué no s´atrevix a dir-ho? ¿Es Catalunya la nacio del terror? ¿Com se pot tindre por de manifestar que u no se sent català? ¿Por a qué? ¿Sera un sentiment no “cientific”?

    Sebastià Campos i Terrès va escriure en 1934: “Hi ha que catalanitzar Tortosa, oireu dir molt sovint. Però fixeu-vos bé qui ho diu. Probablement no és tortosí…No ha esbrinat quina és l’ànima de Tortosa,…perquè d’haver-lo esbrinat mancaria a la veritat, seria demanar-li les taronges al noguer…”

    Retrocedint a mitan del XIX, a l´epoca de renaixença dels sentiments nacionalitaris, trobem a un tortosi, Tió, que escrivia l’any 1842, “Recordad la letra del final del himno de Tortosa: -Ni catalans, ni valencians: ¡som Tortosins!-”. Ramon Vergés i Paulí (1874-193, en l´articul “Tortosins, ni Catalans ni Valencians”, escrigue: “Natros sabem estimá tant a Tortosa, que de cap atre poble del mon se conta lo que d’este poble. Natros no som ni catalans ni valencians, sino tortosins…”

    Les Memories de Vicent Torralba que nos conten fets succeits entre 1609 i 1651. diuen referint-se al “Dia 6 de dehembre de l’any 1650” que “Tortosa no volgue convenir en la rebelio de Catalunya, y per(o) asso la han mirada els catalans en mals ulls y la borraren del llibre de la Diputacio, de manera que de Tortosa no sortejaven diputat. … Ni als de Tortosa els volen dir catalans, sino tortosins…” Es curios llegir carta de 1664, segons la qual: “Los procuradores, cabildo y gobernador de esta ciudad de Tortosa; solicitan a vuestra majestad que saque del Convento de Capuchinos desta ciudad a los religiosos catalanes y entregue dicho convento a los Capuchinos de la provincia de Valencia” (ACA, L.695).

    Anant mes arrere, sabem que a finals del s XV, els tortosins consideraven que la seua patria era Tortosa i no Catalunya, quan “A veus plenes” manifestaven, que “¡ara serà franca y prosperada la patria!, en motiu de la construccio d´un assut. En l´articul “Catalunya i catalans en temps de Jaume I (II)” varem vore com de la “Ordinatio ecclesiae valentinae”, podia despendre´s que el bisbe de Tortosa (episcopo Dertusensi), era vei dels “clerici catalani”, per lo qual Tortosa era veina dels catalans i no catalana. Tambe sabem que quedà fora de la delimitació territorial dels catalans citats per Jaume I per a l´assamblea de “Pau i treva” del 23 de juny de 1218.

    Esta falta de conciencia catalana dels tortosins, per la seua personalitat diferenciada, feu que en acabant de la seua conquista cristiana en 1148, l´antic territori musulma, es transformara en marquesat independent, “Tortosae Marquio”, contant en ordenament legal propi: “La costum de Tortosa”. Honori Garcia trobà punts de contacte entre l´ordenament tortosi y els furs valencians, afirmant per eixemple que “Quizá entre los muzárabes tortosinos y valencianos se guardara ese usufructo vidual”

    La relacio del tortosins i valencians ha estat condicionada a banda de per la proximitat fisica, per l´adscripcio a la seu episcopal de Tortosa, d´una part important del nort de Castello. A 28 de novembre de 1178, Alfons II, assignà a la catedral de Tortosa “Almenaram”, “Bounegre”, “Alcalathum”, “Moron”, “Culam”, “Aras”, “Morelam”…, tots ells “cum suis terminis”. El document parla d´antics llimits “secundum antiquos limites”, llimits no documentats previament i pot ser inexistents. Segurament, la rao de l´adscripcio, fon dotar a la seu tortosina d´un territori suficient, que donara confiança per a fer front a la seua pobrea: “rex intuens paupertatem domus dei”. Esta divisio diocesal, es va mantindre en el temps i els valencians la sentien com a una imposicio de la que fugir. Per l´Autobiografia de Catala de Valeriola, referint-se a “Dilluns a 31 de juliol, 16oo”, sabem que la vila de Morella li havia escrit per a que “…suplicas a Sa Magestad la desmembraçio del bisbat de Tortosa y ques fes nova erexio en la vila de Morella…” havent-se ya suplicat anteriorment “…la mateixa desmenbraçio y la erexio de la iglesia de Castello de la Plana…”

    Tambe podria ser que part dels tortosins hagueren segut etnicament valencians. L´Ebre, es una important barrera natural, que sense dubte separà distints pobles. Plini (23-79), parla dels ibers ilercavons al nort del Millars, “…flumen Uduba: regio Ilergaonum” i en acabant de parlar de l´Ebre “Iberus amnis navigabili”, cita a un atre poble: els cossetans. La “Cronica del moro Rasis” d´al Razi, (889-955) diu que: “Parte el termino de Tortosa con el de Valençia; e el de Tortosa esta bien fecho, e esta sobre el rrio de Ebro…” Si Tortosa esta “sobre el rrio de Ebro”, vol dir que escomençava, per damunt de l´Ebre. Segurament la llogica indui a que Mercator, l´any 1609, en el mapa “Arragonia et Catalonia”, senyalara la separacio entre Valencia i “Catalonia” en el riu Ebre. ¡Els problemes que nos hauriem estalviat si hui fitarem en l´Ebre!

    Resulta curios que la “Gran enciclopedia Catalana” diga que la mossarabia valenciana fon qui “repoblà les valls de l’Ebre i del Jalón” (t.X pp 336-337), o que L´Aldea fora poblada segons diu José Mª Franquet Bernis en la seua tesis doctoral, “amb una comunitat musulmana-valenciana de Silla” o que en el municipi d´Ulldecona existixca un nucleu de poblacio que es diu “Els Valentins”.

    Un atre tema interessant, es el de la llengua dels tortosins, en relacio al valencià i al català. En la p. 723 del llibre “Congrés Internacional de Toponímia i Onomástica Catalanes” (2001. Valencia), referent a la llengua de la comarca tortosina del Montsià, es parla del “caràcter de pas de la zona i de transició de la parla”, informant-nos de “les respostes, que podem obtindre si preguntem als montsianecs Quina llengua parlen?” I son: “català, mig en valencià; català-valencià; parlem més en català; parlem mes en valencià; ni és valencià ni és català”. J.S. Beltran, va escriure el llibre “El subdialecte tortosí. Una parla de transició”, en el qual llegim que “L´inherent caràcter de transició del tortosí ha fet oscil·lar, de vegades, l´adscripció d´aquest al nord-occidental o al valencià.

    Tere Izquierdo Salom, en “Els xiquets i xiquetes de Tortosa diuen nen i nena”, es queixa de que les formes lexiques que els catalans imponen als tortosins van “en detriment de les occidentals o genuïnes”. Paraules compartides entre valencians i tortosins com “batistot”, “comboiar”, “casporra”, “coquiller”, “cotet”, “engalochat”, “melada”, “pita”, “saragüells”, “sobralles”, “tarquim”, “chilladissa”…, han segut posades hui en perill d´extincio, per la recua de pseudocientifics, que pretenen, una inexistent pero ensomiada, uniformitat, a colp de lo que siga. ¿Estrategia nazi?

    Ya Antoni de Puigblanch, naixcut en Mataro l´any 1775, dia del “rector de Vallfogona” que “Que Vallfogona tropieze en ambas cosas es disculpable, pues en Tortosa, como se habla más bien valenciano que catalán…” De 10 de setembre de 1634 es l´acort del Consell Municipal de Castelló en el que es llig: “… que lo senyor bisbe de Tortosa ha proveit, en la penultima vessita manant en aquella, ques predique en llengua valenciana”. Jeroni Amiguet (Tortosa, segle XV/XVI) va escriure el llibre “Sinonima variationum sententiarum”. editat en Valencia l’any 1502. Diu que l´escriu: “… ex italico sermone in valentinum…”

    Com els aires de grandea i els desijos incomplits, a voltes tenen conseqüencies neuronals, alguns catalans, catalanistes i acatalanats, parlen de Murcia com a “país català frustrat”, quan la frustracio no tenen que anar a buscar-la tan llunt perque la tenen dins de les seues fronteres, en Tortosa, dins de la qual mor, s´acaba, s´esfuma, i es desfa el sentiment català, que passa a convertir-se en bufes de pato. Pero inventar mentires els ix debades, i ad alguns catalans, catalanistes i acatalanats, ¡ausades que els agrada tot lo que siga debades o furtat!


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    M'ha paregut molt interessant sobre la identitad dels tortosins.

  2. #2
    Creuat de lo Regne Avatar de ALQUERIA
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    Puix agarra als aranesos, ells ni son catalans ni parlen catala.
    ¿Podria algu ficar el video a on ix un jove del Vall d'Aran digent-li a la terrorista de Pilar Rahola que els aranesos no son catalans? Es un video molt interesant.

  3. #3
    Tinent de lo Regne
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    Fruïx:

    [video width=400 height=350:23a2b4b84f]http://www.youtube.com/v/HnMA7KdGxn0&hl=es_ES&fs=1&[/video:23a2b4b84f]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0

  4. #4
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    Esta Rahola és una ignorante,como todos los payasos estos que salen siempre,deberían preguntar a los demás que opinamos,pero claro,eso no vende.


    Muy buen articulo Valencià És Llengua,muchas frases son un reflejo de lo que opino como tortosina que soy,y por muy catalana que sea,tengo unas raíces y una lengua que dista mucho del catalán,aunque se empeñen en catalanizarnos y hacernos perder esas raíces.Tortosa tenía una lengua propia antes de que el catalán ni tan siquiera existiera,ni tansiquiera existía ni Cataluña!!!!!!

  5. #5
    Cavaller Centenar Avatar de valencianista_jove
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    en algun lugar sobre el arco iris...
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    PARA MI ES MUY SENCILLO LA VIDA DEBERIA DE VIVIRSE AL LIMITE,NO HAY QUE SOMETERSE A NINGUNA NORMA,NI DEJARSE INFLUENCIAR POR LO QUE OTROS PUEDAN DECIR O PENSAR. HAY QUE VER CADA MOMENTO,CADA IDEA CADA DIA COMO UN VERDADERO RETO Y ENTONCES SOLO ASI UNO LOGRARA VIVIR EN LA CUERDA FLOJA

  6. #6
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    els tortosins està clar que no son valencians, que cosa més estúpida...
    Només es pot defendre la llengua valenciana parlant-la |=
    GAV_ALBAL@HOTMAIL.COM

  7. #7
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    Veronika,
    per el teu nick i perque dius que eres tortosina, crec que tu y yo ya em "combatit" el catalanisme en este grup de facebook:
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=66966598311
    Sempre es bo vore gent no manipulada, tant valencians com catalans.
    Vixquem tots los pobles lliures, de catalanisme, de fascisme.

  8. #8
    Fiscal de lo Regne Avatar de Fayostros
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    Sense comentaris...




    ¿Ya pa que?

    "Los fascistas del futuro, se llamarán a sí mismos antifascistas."
    Winston Churchill

  9. #9
    Palleter de lo Regne Avatar de Rudyweiss
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    Cita Iniciado por veronika
    Esta Rahola és una ignorante,como todos los payasos estos que salen siempre,deberían preguntar a los demás que opinamos,pero claro,eso no vende.


    Muy buen articulo Valencià És Llengua,muchas frases son un reflejo de lo que opino como tortosina que soy,y por muy catalana que sea,tengo unas raíces y una lengua que dista mucho del catalán,aunque se empeñen en catalanizarnos y hacernos perder esas raíces.Tortosa tenía una lengua propia antes de que el catalán ni tan siquiera existiera,ni tansiquiera existía ni Cataluña!!!!!!
    Hola ... Bienvenida de nuevo ... ya se te echaba en falta ...

  10. #10
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    Cita Iniciado por Cuatro
    Veronika,
    per el teu nick i perque dius que eres tortosina, crec que tu y yo ya em "combatit" el catalanisme en este grup de facebook:
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=66966598311
    Sempre es bo vore gent no manipulada, tant valencians com catalans.
    Vixquem tots los pobles lliures, de catalanisme, de fascisme.

    Hola Cuatro!!!
    Pues si,soy yo.Ya ves,no todos los catalanes somos catalanistas,creo que a eso se le llama sentido común.
    Y como ya podiste leer en el foro (y como se puede leer en muchos foros)no solo los valencianos sufrís el catalanismo,es una lucha de todos,valencianos,baleares,aragoneses i catalanes,aunque no lo parezca somos muchos los catalanes que estamos en contra.

  11. #11
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    Cita Iniciado por Rudyweiss
    Cita Iniciado por veronika
    Esta Rahola és una ignorante,como todos los payasos estos que salen siempre,deberían preguntar a los demás que opinamos,pero claro,eso no vende.


    Muy buen articulo Valencià És Llengua,muchas frases son un reflejo de lo que opino como tortosina que soy,y por muy catalana que sea,tengo unas raíces y una lengua que dista mucho del catalán,aunque se empeñen en catalanizarnos y hacernos perder esas raíces.Tortosa tenía una lengua propia antes de que el catalán ni tan siquiera existiera,ni tansiquiera existía ni Cataluña!!!!!!
    Hola ... Bienvenida de nuevo ... ya se te echaba en falta ...

    Hola Rudyweiss!!!!!Aunque no intervenga siempre estoy por aqui...

  12. #12
    Creuat de lo Regne Avatar de ALQUERIA
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    Cita Iniciado por Valencia_es_llengua
    Fruïx:

    [video width=400 height=350:a920cdf63c]http://www.youtube.com/v/HnMA7KdGxn0&hl=es_ES&fs=1&[/video:a920cdf63c]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0

    MOOOOOLTISIMES GRACIES. Casi me corro de gusto.

  13. #13
    Tinent de lo Regne
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    Si, yo també he tingut algo paregut a un orgasme hahaha!

  14. #14
    Aspirant a Centenar
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    Re: Tortosins: Ni catalans ni valencians

    Cita Iniciado por Valencia_es_llengua
    Com els aires de grandea i els desijos incomplits, a voltes tenen conseqüencies neuronals, alguns catalans, catalanistes i acatalanats, parlen de Murcia com a “país català frustrat
    El artículo llamado Murcia, un paìs català frustra? es de los documentos propagandísticos catalanistas que más evidencia el delirio del catalanistmo de ciertos personajes; basta con echar una ojeada a su explicación y exposición de la historia, cultura y lengua murcianas, una auténtica basura propagandística que cuenta hechos y consecuencias históricas según el interés catalanista y calla cuantos argumentos estorban para tal ideal, todo de manera sesgada, imparcial, convenida, tergiversada o bien manipulada, donde se presenta "todo" como catalán, y de lo aragonés y mozárabe no dice ni pío.

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